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US religious schizos in politics and beyond Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 01:24 [Preview] No. 50643 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Interesting article about some recent religious schizo movements in the US with some US-overdose moments: https://counter-currents.com/2023/07/the-ongoing-revolution-in-american-protestantism/

>There is an ongoing revolution in American Protestantism which is worth examining: the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The NAR is an outgrowth of the Pentecostal Denomination which developed in Los Angeles during the 1906 Azuza Street Revival. Simply put, Pentecostalism’s difference from other branches of Christianity is the theological idea that the events described in The Acts of the Apostles are prescriptive rather than descriptive. A prescriptive view of Acts means that ordinary Christian believers in the here and now can and should experience personal interactions with the Holy Spirit, as well as speaking in tongues and other miracles as described therein. Christian theology prior to this interpretation saw the events in Acts as descriptions of historical, one-time affairs.

>The NAR’s initial concepts were developed by Charles Peter Wagner, an American missionary to Bolivia. When he returned to the United States in 1971, he popularized the concept of “spiritual warfare,” a type of conflict where humans battle unseen evil forces. The New Apostolic Reformation also has prophets and apostles within its ranks. An apostle was — or is, according to the NAR — a person who has seen Jesus Christ after the resurrection, was — or is — commissioned by the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel, and can perform miracles.

>The NAR has started to influence politics, and there is no reason to believe that this movement will dissipate anytime soon. Its believers supported President Trump, and they remain convinced that the 2020 election was fraudulent. One of their members, Doug Mastriano, unsuccessfully ran for Governor of Pennsylvania in 2022. Despite his defeat, Mastriano remains in the Pennsylvania State Senate.

>Perhaps the most important thinker in the NAR is the late Darrell Fields. Although Fields looks white, he is a member of the Cherokee Nation.
6 posts and 2 images omitted.


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 16:03 [Preview] No.50660 del
One day I have to get around to reading the bible.
Something that I have to find out is what kind of person Jesus was regarding his ascension to the status he has.
Was he passive or even against it? Or did he flame these fuels and even encourage it or instigate it himself in which case he's just another one of these madmen.


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 16:37 [Preview] No.50661 del
>>50660
There have been several different interpretation of the Bible throughout history, from more theological things like the nature of the trinity to material stuff like the expenses of the clergy (what we know as reformation was far from the first time that was criticized, it was merely when certain positions finally had military backing, much like what became the status quo for the Catholic Church throughout the centuries was basically what had enough financial/military backing behind it). With that said, I think one of the best ways of acquiring perspective is looking at history and how the several different currents affected politics, the economy, regular people, etc. rather than delving into theological arguments (which quite often devolved into "you just have to believe!" if you followed certain lines of thought to their ultimate consequences). There's no consensus on whether Jesus existed as a historical figure either so you'd just be wasting time with a bunch of hypotheses which are often religiously motivated (as opposed to a religion agnostic truth seeking approach, which isn't exactly common but certainly more useful).


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 16:41 [Preview] No.50662 del
>>50652
>calling them schizos more or less showcases my opinion
Perhaps but on chans "schizo" doesn't mean much these days.
>very clearly an American phenomenon
The US churns out all kinds of weird variations of Protestants. Sometimes they find their way into Europe.
>relying too much on the support of people like that will eventually bite a politician on the butt unless he goes schizo as well,
I concur. But it isn't just politics, can be entertainment, art or even science. Let's say a youtuber has to cater to those who found his channel and comment and support, pay, and demand. And sometimes they keep the youtuber to gain followers from people with other interests and such. Or like how fans of a band will call em sellouts if they dare to play something different, or a bit more mainstream.
>stereotype of fat black American ladies screaming their hearts out at their church)
Hallelujah my broder.

There is one thread with the Bible.
But never mind. I appreciate the concern about the threads.


Bernd 07/11/2023 (Tue) 19:50 [Preview] No.50669 del
>>50654
I only saw a segment of it before and to be honest I can't watch the whole thing. Cringing too hard.

>>50655
Morals could be gained from the community, because moral exists to make the community livable. But societies are too atomized, individualized; nationalism is crippled, bastardized, and made pretty much untouchable.

>>50658
>Americans deal with politics is very religious in nature
Perhaps not just Americans.

>>50660
I think deciphering that from the Bible isn't easy.
What comes to mind is that he did not consider his role of the classic Messiah for sure. For the Jews the Messiah was a political character, a new king who unifies the Jews, raise them, avenge all their grievances, and makes all the goyim serve the Jews. But he came humble on the back of a donkey, not a horse, and he said give to the emperor what's his, and give to God what's his.
Perhaps his interactions with the devil could worth a look. He defeated the temptation which isn't the same as conquering the devil, or casting down or stepping on his head as said in the video: >>50654


Bernd 08/12/2023 (Sat) 17:07 [Preview] No.50844 del
>>50643
>speaking in tongues
They're completely missing the point. The Pentecost miracle described in the Acts of the Apostles was translation into real, human languages so the audience could understand. What they should see as prescriptive in it is the need for clear and convincing sermons. Gibberish nobody will understand, which is what pentecostals do, is the opposite of that. Even Paul wrote something to this effect.



Bernd 01/05/2023 (Thu) 01:42 [Preview] No. 49588 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
They're killing KC, either through pedo content and/or moderation.

We need to organize and we need to create a sensible alternative, without pedo content, without this moderation.
Any American schizo willing to chip in? And Ihor?
13 posts and 1 image omitted.


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 08:34 [Preview] No.50646 del
>>50629
You're not missing anything. It's a cess pit of faggotry.


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 14:33 [Preview] No.50651 del
>>50629
Whenever you open the catalogue there'll be gay porn, interracial porn, tranny porn, porn of other kinds, threads reposting 4chan/twitter/tiktok/reddit, endless threads about Ukraine (even beyond the general they've created), more and more posters calling each others anons and acting like a 2008 /b/ troll, growing number of avatarfags, threads about having sex/being incel...


Bernd 07/11/2023 (Tue) 07:12 [Preview] No.50665 del
>>50663
At least the picrel of the Ukraine general is well picked.


Dutch bernd Bernd 07/14/2023 (Fri) 01:20 [Preview] No.50689 del
>>50663
>>50663
Heya buddy.
I just noticed that your screencap had a thread image that very very, not good. Liek it shouldn't be posted at all bc you could get into trouble for having it? Look almost at the bottom of the image u can see what I mean

Could you try reuploading one with that "one picture" blurred out bernd pls?


Dutch bernd Bernd 07/14/2023 (Fri) 01:22 [Preview] No.50690 del
Also, reminder to any bernds in case you wanna hide a thread on kohl

Hold the Shift key + Left click on the thread picture while catalog scrolling. That hides the thread on kohl for as long as you keep your browser open.





Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 17:56:27 [Preview] No.39021 del
>>39020
Well I live in bursa.

>oghuz
Well even smaller portion of ireland is redheaded not majority. Doubt there were way too many of them.


Bernd Board volunteer 08/04/2020 (Tue) 18:15:01 [Preview] No.39026 del
>>38995
Nice tidbit, never would have thought. I randomly picked out the Ladins, and you found a connection.

>>39002
We had several noble families with Török surname (and it seems one written as Thewrewk - in this case the w is basically u like in Welsh language). One of them risen into the ranks of the high aristocracy.
It seems even the oldest gens' weren't older than the half of the 15th century which is well in the Ottoman era, them being our southern neighbour. The origins are obscure, if I had to guess at least a couple of their ancestors were ennobled for their service in the wars against the Ottomans.


Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 22:11:13 [Preview] No.39036 del
>>38874
>How about the people in the jungle? Could be a yet undiscovered tribe covering in the shade?
Not impossible.

>>38995
Impressive in how willpower and personal charisma can shape a community. Sometimes they even form communities.


Bernd 08/07/2020 (Fri) 14:57:33 [Preview] No.39088 del
>>39036
Sometimes I wonder how long could a memory of a prehistorical hero live on. Was Gilgamesh a hunter or shaman of several thousand years dead already by the time Sumers immortalized him? "Oh he was just made up by them" - we can state easily, but who knows.


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 01:21 [Preview] No.50642 del
I'm afraid this thread will slide off the catalog once I create the one I'm planning to so I'm bumping it and two other ones (which means the dijon mustard thread will die instead if any of the bottom threads slide off).



Bernd 07/10/2020 (Fri) 23:53 [Preview] No. 38522 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Why late roman army didn't reintroduce the phalanxes, I think the immobile part of army; limitanei, feodorati could use the formation. Well if they couldn't what was the reason?

Why were they using spears but not phalanx sarissas? Is it because of 'barbarian' influences?
45 posts and 20 images omitted.


Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 18:00:02 [Preview] No.39023 del
>>39017
As many as a million people (probably 1 in 5 of the Gauls) died, another million were enslaved,[24] 300 clans were subjugated and 800 cities were destroyed during the Gallic Wars.[25] The entire population of the city of Avaricum (Bourges) (40,000 in all) were slaughtered.[26] Before Julius Caesar's campaign against the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland), the Helvetians had numbered 263,000, but afterwards only 100,000 remained, most of whom Caesar took as slaves.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul#Conquest_by_Rome

wiki is not the best source. I would think its a higher number. Fuck ceasar. And fuck rome.


Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 18:06:09 [Preview] No.39024 del
>>39022
I'm on the IRC right now.


Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 18:09:35 [Preview] No.39025 del
>>39022
If qchat doesn't work, try this:
https://b.clients.kiwiirc.com/


Bernd 08/10/2020 (Mon) 19:30:40 [Preview] No.39176 del
Here's one about the development of Monkeydonian phalanx. Randomly showed in my face by the youtube algorithm.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=OdlKvZIHgMY [Embed]


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 01:21 [Preview] No.50641 del
I'm afraid this thread will slide off the catalog once I create the one I'm planning to so I'm bumping it and two other ones (which means the dijon mustard thread will die instead if any of the bottom threads slide off).



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Omnicidism and Similar Ideas Bernd 08/02/2020 (Sun) 01:45 [Preview] No. 38916 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
(1/2) I believe in Omnicidism (A similar, but distinct idea is Efilism which is against creating any life, but it can lead to Omnicidism which is why I have mentioned it) which is a moral philosophy where the most ethical course of action is the instant and painless annihilation of all life in the universe with no chance of it coming back. Of course, this is impossible for now but I am arguing it as a thought experiment, not as a pragmatic idea.

I will introduce why I believe in this by starting off with my definition of suffering. Suffering is any negative experience experienced by a sentient being. It is bad because it is everything that is bad. Suffering is good only when it prevents future suffering. Otherwise, nobody enjoys suffering because it is not suffering if it is enjoyed.

Adding onto this point, I would like to introduce Negative Utilitarianism. In this ideology, not creating suffering is valued above creating happiness/pleasure. Hard Negative Utilitarianism is a concept where not creating suffering is the only thing that matters. This relates because omnicidism is against all procreation because all procreation creates suffering. The fact that most people report being happy is irrelevant because we only need to focus on not creating suffering. You are not unethical if you do not give resources to the homeless, but you are if you decide to take resources away from them. Taking someone's life is unethical, but not creating life is not unethical. The logical conclusion of this is to prevent all life from being born, and to prevent all life from being born you must kill all life so that it does not reproduce.

On that note, you may be thinking "According to your philosophy, wouldn't murder be ethical? Shouldn't everyone kill themselves then?" to which I say no to both. Murder is unethical because it inflicts grief-related suffering on those who care about the person who was murdered. Suicide also follows, being a net negative. However, this can lead to unfortunate implications to those unloved. For example, if we kill the homeless, then people would be more stressed about becoming homeless.

Another argument is that procreation is gambling with someone's life without their consent. If you forced someone to go into a room where they would have a 90% chance of winning a large sum of money but 10% chance of getting cancer, most people would be understandably upset at you gambling with their life like that. Why would life be any different? When you give life to someone, you're risking an innocent person developing suicidal depression, being kidnapped and tortured, getting an incurable disease and much more. They may still think that their life was worth living, but why would that make it okay to let someone else suffer as much as they did?

Non-existent people cannot miss or want pleasure. By bringing someone into existence, they become a slave to their instincts, fears, and desires. Wanting to live does not mean life is good, much like wanting to drink does not mean alcoholism is good.

My final argument is that life is generally a negative sum game. It may not look like it for humans, but it is very probable that most animals suffer more in their life than not. If you want a demonstration of this, compare the suffering of an animal being eaten to the pleasure an animal gets from eating it. The suffering is much greater. Not only this, but imagine being a prey animal. Mortal terror is a very common occurrence for these.
26 posts and 6 images omitted.


Bernd 08/03/2020 (Mon) 12:46:27 [Preview] No.38980 del
>NPC calls someone idiot

classic


Bernd 08/03/2020 (Mon) 13:46:15 [Preview] No.38983 del
I think suffering can be very helpful and make you grow as a person


Bernd 08/03/2020 (Mon) 14:31:55 [Preview] No.38987 del
>>38980
Amazing, you are truly gifted in the ways of rhetoric and very individual and not the 'NPC' you try to attack in that post at all.


sage Bernd 08/04/2020 (Tue) 01:30:02 [Preview] No.38997 del
>>38954
It also looks like a plagiarized copy of the thread Swedebernd made here about Communitarianism >>38756


Bernd 07/10/2023 (Mon) 01:21 [Preview] No.50640 del
I'm afraid this thread will slide off the catalog once I create the one I'm planning to so I'm bumping it and two other ones (which means the dijon mustard thread will die instead if any of the bottom threads slide off).



Bernd 06/20/2019 (Thu) 23:32 [Preview] No. 27456 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Name some idiomatic expressions from your language, give a literal translation and explain their meaning.

Cutucando onça com vara curta: "Poking a jaguar with a short stick". A reckless act.

Encher linguiça: "Filling sausages". Meaningless filler speech. Comparable to "padding out" or "beating around the bush".

Lei para inglês ver: "A law for Englishmen to see". In a strict sense this is the Feijó Law of November 7th 1831. It banned the slave trade but went completely unenforced, as it was passed only to appease Britain, which was pressuring the government to cease the import of Africans. Thus, at the time the law was said to be just for Englishmen to see, and the expression now applies to anything used only to maintain appearences. Comparable to "Potemkin village".

Tirar o cavalo da chuva: "Removing one's horse from the rain". A reference to 19th century etiquette: visitors left their horses exposed to the elements, expecting to leave quickly, but their hosts could offer to take their horses off the rain and leave them sheltered so they could spend more time. By some poorly understood semantic shift, this invitation came to mean giving up: you take your horse off the rain if you abandon some pretension.

A vaca foi pro brejo: "The cow went to the bog". A situation greatly worsened.

Dar nome aos bois: "Naming the oxen". Denouncing those involved in something, typically negative, or saying something important.

Boi de piranha: "Piranha ox". Sacrificing something of lesser value to save something greater, allegedly from cattle barges throwing away an older bovine into piranha-infested waters to save the rest. For that we have a more easily understood expression, dar os dedos para não perder as mãos ("giving away the fingers to save the hands").

Queimar a rosca: "Burning the donut". Homosex. Bolsonaro famously replied this to a homosexual on Twitter.

Message too long. Click here to view full text.

99 posts and 26 images omitted.


Bernd 01/18/2022 (Tue) 18:27:00 [Preview] No.46147 del
>>46131
>>46138
It's a common peasant bird and the sound evokes rural nostalgia for many. Most probably don't think in terms of species but are still aware of its significant differences in taste and behavior from regular chicken.
Tô-fraco is a biased interpretation because it also means "I'm weak" and onomatopoeia directly corresponding to real sentences seem to be more effective in becoming the standard, even when they're not the closest to the real sound. A famous example is the bem-te-vi:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=07LWGUcKs18 [Embed]

But no way it's csirp-csirp. There are a lot of othe ways to word it besides tô-fraco, but in any case you need at least two vowels.


Dutch bernd Bernd 01/19/2022 (Wed) 02:25:47 [Preview] No.46149 del
(2.67 MB 640x360 amerigan2.webm)
>>46129
>Posting from a new location and now I'm suddenly a hamburger


Just had to post this


Bernd 04/13/2022 (Wed) 19:41:47 [Preview] No.47224 del
cigányútra ment = went on the gypsy way; used when gulped something into the wrong pipe and got coughing fit.


Bernd 06/15/2023 (Thu) 12:40 [Preview] No.50422 del
Poste mijando no cachorro: "Lamppost peeing on the dog". An absurd, outrageous situation, an inversion of the proper moral order.


Bernd 06/15/2023 (Thu) 14:55 [Preview] No.50424 del
>>50422
Heh, that's a good one and can be incorporated into similar Hungarian sayings. We have "the rabbit's holding the hunting rifle" or the "the canned fruit preserves the granma in the mason jar". But basically any situation - or idioms - can be transformed to create this type of saying. Liek, the "coloring book is tearing apart the retard kid" the original saying/threat is: I'm gonna tear you apart like retard kid the coloring book!
Oh, in Hungarian:
a nyúl viszi a vadászpuskát
a befőtt teszi el a nagymamát
But



Bernd 06/03/2019 (Mon) 12:13 [Preview] No. 26858 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
if you upvote my thread good blessings and loving girlfriend will come to you


if you like my thread on facebook you will experience 5 months of good luck =)

it'll come to you ==))
102 posts and 33 images omitted.


Bernd 06/04/2023 (Sun) 14:03 [Preview] No.50326 del
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>>26858

I cannot upvote your thread. What do?


Bernd 06/04/2023 (Sun) 15:42 [Preview] No.50327 del
>>50326
Make sure to smash the like button harder. Anyway, now that you posted, lean back and wait for the gf to appear.
Reminds me there was this website with a red button in the middle of the page and could only press it.


Bernd 06/07/2023 (Wed) 19:50 [Preview] No.50353 del
(33.21 KB 1600x1200 upvote button.png)
>>50326
>I cannot upvote your thread. What do?

u gotta click on that little button on the side bernd


Bernd 06/07/2023 (Wed) 19:52 [Preview] No.50355 del
>>50327
ebaum's world?


Bernd 06/08/2023 (Thu) 17:00 [Preview] No.50362 del
>>50355
No. Maybe ebaums has such. But no.



Syria Thread - Suffering on the Ukraine Bernd 09/20/2022 (Tue) 10:15 [Preview] No. 48765 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Previous thredder: >>47132

A bit of habbenings had on the Syria every couple of day, in general nichts Neues as the poet says.

On the Ukraine they go slow, but Ukrainians in Bilohorovka again, while Russians are now operating over the Bakhmutka, south of Bakhmut.
497 posts and 235 images omitted.


Bernd 05/22/2023 (Mon) 15:37 [Preview] No.50283 del
Found this in HistoryLegends video. He does not mention where he gets this. I assume at least partially he used militaryland's deployment map. If I were him I also have my own notes gathered during the whole length of the battle from anywhere basically, all the tidbits appearing in whatever news, be it a telegram channel or a large news site. But are there other sources, at least one that gives an approximate list like militaryland?


Bernd 05/24/2023 (Wed) 18:15 [Preview] No.50292 del
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Do Bernd remember the news about the Northern Hungarian officials claiming Hungary trains Ukrainian soldiers? Here: >>49918
Now there are stronger voices in the media about Sweden giving Gripen's to Ukraine. They have several advantages, they are small, fine with short runways, ain't worse then the rest (they fared well in some exercise in 2006), can be used in couple of roles. The Swedes also curious about if they could match what the Russians have.
https://min.news/en/military/a409faa4bc530b328f75ed6ccff23b7e.html
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/04/23/ukraines-top-guns-need-new-jets-to-win-the-war
Another notable point: Hungary has these.
And these days we also train our astronauts on them:
https://index.hu/belfold/2023/05/24/hunor-program-urhajosjeloltek-urhajos-nemzetkozi-urallomas-kapu-tibor-schlegl-adam-cserenyi-gyula-szakaly-andras/
Do we train some Ukrainian "astronauts" as well perhaps?


Bernd 05/24/2023 (Wed) 19:13 [Preview] No.50293 del
>>50292
Also great quote from first article:
>Sweden's main purpose is to provide Ukraine with fighter jets for battlefield combat testing and to drag Russia into a protracted war.
They know Ukraine can't win. They don't want Ukraine win. They want the war the drag on, they just try to tire out Russia, like in Afghanistan. The 12 million Afghan payed dearly. But it was chiefly an asymmetric war. This one in Ukraine is a straight up meatgrinder. Casualties on Ukrainian side is highly downplayed, we speculated about this occasionally. And it's not just about the dead - both military and civilian. It's about the maimed, and all who fled the country too.


Bernd 05/24/2023 (Wed) 20:53 [Preview] No.50294 del
>>50293
This is what this whole war is about.
The US, after being bogged down for decades in failed wars, they decided its a better strategy to get their competitors trapped in costly wars. So now they are using ukrainians as usefull idiots/cannon fodder against russia. The same reason the US is constantly provoking China.


Bernd 05/25/2023 (Thu) 07:37 [Preview] No.50295 del
>>50294
This is an utterly silly observation.
Plus the US is doing good what she's doing from her own viewpoint.



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Bernd 07/20/2021 (Tue) 02:26 [Preview] No. 44478 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Hows your garden going /kc/? Mine is doing well.
12 posts and 5 images omitted.


Bernd 04/05/2023 (Wed) 06:49 [Preview] No.50064 del
Am worried that the frost will kill my radishes, we have an awful shit weather nowadays. I mean it's super nice weather with much sunshine, except it's goddamn cold due to wind. I'm also hesitant to water the plants, the soil starts to get dry due to the weather, so water is needed, but it might just freeze during the night killing my plants.


Bernd 04/07/2023 (Fri) 07:07 [Preview] No.50073 del
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We got snow.


Bernd 05/07/2023 (Sun) 10:05 [Preview] No.50204 del
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Lotsa growing was done. I ate a radish today, it was still small, but it was spicy.
On picrel around the radish in the front and back rows are the onions, on the left garlic.


Bernd 05/07/2023 (Sun) 10:22 [Preview] No.50205 del
I'm thinking I have to start thinning the radish. They take up space from each other.


Dutch bernd Bernd 05/17/2023 (Wed) 03:25 [Preview] No.50239 del
>>50205
ya gotta plan your garden time out before doing it bernd



It was all a Communist plot Bernd 06/12/2018 (Tue) 13:13 [Preview] No. 17165 [Reply] [Last 50 Posts]
Anyone heard this theory?
>the Soviets made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to start another war between France and Germany
>the Soviets wouldn't've even joined the war, except Germany was going to lose to Poland (ending the war without weakening the Western powers)
>Operation Barbarossa was a pre-emptive strike; Hitler never had a choice to avoid war with the Soviet Union, only whether to attack or to be attacked
>the Soviets lost a shitload of personnel and materiel to Barbarossa because they had an offensive force on the border, waiting to blitz all of Europe

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IU3kyF6rQtY [Embed]
171 posts and 58 images omitted.


Bernd 04/27/2023 (Thu) 10:58 [Preview] No.50164 del
>>50163
Well I am going based on the video, specifically where he said “Hitler was an idiot, Stalin was a genius, Stalin played Hitler with Barbarossa”

How can any of that be true? Barbarossa was one of the worst military disasters in world history?

Suvorov does bring into account the Soviet perspective that is often forgotten in the West, but there is ample evidence on the German side that the attack was premeditated with the goal of the destruction of the USSR.

Stalin probably did have confidence that, in the event of a war, the USSR would be in Berlin by fall of 1941. Who cares? It shows how out of touch he was, not how genius and powerful he was.


Bernd 04/27/2023 (Thu) 11:00 [Preview] No.50165 del
>>50162
>Former GRU officer says Russia is strong and can do no wrong and their leader is the smartest man in the world
Plus Suvorov did not say that at all.
>>50159
>"our mistakes are actually strengths you just don't know how strong we are fear us" line.
Neither this.
Nowhere Suvorov says getting beaten by the German at the launch of Barbarossa was part of the plan.
He clearly says the German attack collapsed all the Soviet plans. It's the other way around.

You note Crimea and Donbas and Mariupol, pulling current events into the discussion tells me you extrapolate from the current stance of Moscow, that if a plan fails they just say they did not want to achieve that - or at least what you think is the current stance of moscow.
Another problem with this that Moscow nowhere stated what they wanted with the initial attack.
They did not claimed beforehand that they wanted to capture Kiev. We, the outsiders, guess that it was in the plans (yeah, they really thought it will be like a 2nd, Crimea maybe I'll write about this too).
But they can freely claim they did not want to capture Kiev, they just wanted to distract forces from the south and such. We don't know for sure and can't know for sure.


Bernd 04/27/2023 (Thu) 11:02 [Preview] No.50166 del
>>50164
>Stalin played Hitler with Barbarossa
This was never said by anyone.


Bernd 04/30/2023 (Sun) 01:54 [Preview] No.50178 del
>>50152
That's a controversial subject around these parts.


Bernd 05/13/2023 (Sat) 16:46 [Preview] No.50222 del
Well, now that he probably isn't here, it's time to reply in more earnest. Probably will go on in a couple of posts in the following days.

First back to the previous post, just above >>50166
Stalin played Hitler to get into a war with France and Great Britain. Barbarossa was an unseen event by him, it took him by surprise. Suvorov spent time on explaining this too (eg. warning from Churchill, or the sheep price index).
We have to remember in the interwar era there was no CIA to play anyone on Earth, or US based multinational giants to buy the rest. All the major powers had their independent will, which wasn't subordinated to the US master. They had their foreign politics and secret services weaving a web to catch all the others and further the cause of their own country. It wasn't a two sided game of the Cold War.
Communism had quite a few sympathizers all over the world, and recruiting agents for the SU was easy. Stalin was also a devious psychopath who played the Soviet Game of Thrones, and outsmarted all the competing Jews. Furthermore it would be a mistake to confuse the various eras of the Soviet Union, these aren't Andropov times with the lazy corruption and high level of inefficiency.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact not just allowed the SU to act unchecked inside the limits of the agreed border of influence, but it allowed to get into a serious war with France and GB for Germany. One of Moscow's goals was pushing Germany into that mire they expected the war to be. They calculated well the war started. But they did expect what noone expected that Germany will breeze through several countries including France. So that was a failure, they wanted the Germans to bogged down for years in the West as they did in WWI. And failing to recognize they are next are partially for the wishful thinking that the Germans are preparing the landing in Britain.
On the side note they surely observed curiously the Blitz, which had some resemblance to their Deep Operation/Battle doctrine.